PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

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PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby urwis » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:07 am

Please consider:
- first player in pvp starts with 6 gems
- Dark Ritual costs 5-6 gems
- Attilla costs 4-5 gems (better stats?)


New update is coming - great news!

Could you consider decreasing the amount of gems for starting player in PvP to 6 (tested by me) / 7 (not tested).
I know, there are more important factors for winning: player deck&skill and redraw of the best developed cards. Still, when I play against comparable opponents, I consider being first a huge advantage. What I can do with 8 gems:
- Level 2 Attila: 14 damage, opponent gets -2 gems
- Level 3 Auxilla Cavalry with Shield = 26 damage
- Level 3 Hastati with Shield = 23 damage
These are 3 example openings, that the opponent can't ignore (I'm playing with bribery, ignoring Attila wouldn't be wise). He then needs at least 5 gems (Minamoto) to netralise my opening. Then he has only 5 gems to develop an attack. When he doesn't get Minamoto, it's more cruel - he needs around 8gems to kill my opening (most of the time with an suicide attack), leaving him 2 gems for attack. So after first turn we both have lvl 3 units in our deck (killed), the first player did more damage, the second player has one-two(unlikely) units with low health on the table. The first player still is first to get a redraw, he often needs only 2 gems to neutralise the remaining enemy force(s) - and we are back at the beginning situation. 8 gems left for new attack, the opponent is again one step behind doing mostly counter-attacks rather than damaging the opponent. The situation can change with luck at redraws, but - assuming the luck will distribute equally - second player will most likely lose.

It's hard to find an opponent with matching deck&skill. It's frustrating playing second like written above.

We had played many times starting with 6 before the last big update. The duells were very close - something I can't say about starting with 8. I have heard one argument against this change - Dark Ritual decks. Playing against Dark Ritual needs heavy opening to win. Second round for DR deck (without gem surpression) means 3 units and +6/+6 for each. Any round without gem surpression and with a single unit on the table means 4 units with +8/+8 - you get +32attack and +32 health on the table for 4gems. It's too much for that price/ too easy to get. Increasing the DR cost would help.

There is a good counter-deck for Dark Ritual - Bribery-based gem surpression. It's very nasty, with lvl 3 Attilla reducing the oponent gems dawn to 5. The problem with Attilla is the price - it's very cheap to respawn. Lvl 3 Attilla effective cost is 0 - you pay 3 and reduce opponent gems by 3. It's too good and makes this deck unbeatable in most cases.

That is bad for diversity - now you should play with DR, Bribery or you will most probably lose. Where's the space for other decks/powers?
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Re: PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby Kramito » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:23 am

Hey Urwis,

Thanks for your feedback!

We'll have some balance changes on this update (Attila is on the list) and I'll try to share them during this week (hopefully tomorrow).

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Re: PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby urwis » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:17 am

Hi FS!

Your latest changes are going in the right direction - good job! There is one big problem, you havent solved - dark ritual decks. PvP:

First round: 3* 2 cost units
Secound round(and following): 3 * 2 cost units + Dark ritual.

If you leave just one unit from the previous round, your opponent will be hit by a 4* ~16/16 army - and the same/worse in the following 2-4 rounds he has left.

My questions for you:

- What are your recommendations to do as an opponent of the DR deck? Keeping in mind, that a good game should allow you to create many comparable decks - for example with other powers.
- Do you recognize it as a problem? It wasn't the case at the last update.
- If yes - when are you going to solve it? Will it be days, weeks, or months? Example solution (not sure if it will work) - cost 5 for dark ritual. Not sure if it will be the complete cure, but it's a good start.

Another problems:

- first player starting with 7 - it's a good move. IMO the change is too weak, but lets don't speak about opinions. You have the data base, you can make a statistic for it. I believe you should.
- weaker players / bots handicap. I have a record of 103 victories to 17 loses this season. Most of the victories were boring - it was versus weaker players / bots / as the first player. Lets address the weaker player/bots issue. What about a handicap +1/+2(/3? - 2 or 3 levels of handicap) gems each turn if there is a big/bigger difference in pvp rating? I would welcome a bot that can beat me, the less experienced players would also welcome an aid fighting against guys from top 20. One potential problem - an experienced player who plays pvp only from time to time and gets the handicap like a rookie. Hard to find a cheat-proof method, but it shouldn't be impossible:). Deck sell value as second/only paramether maybe?
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Re: PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby Kramito » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:17 pm

Hello Urwis,

We keep an eye on the starting gems in pvp and the winning ratio is really similar between the starter player and the second player.

About Dark Ritual, we consider that the power is really powerful and opens a cheap units approach but it's not unbeatable. A new PvP season is going to start and it's a great moment to check the power with the new changes and see if any adjustment is needed.

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Re: PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby Adamastor » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:18 pm

In fact, to see that DR is far from being unbeatable, the top player in this season PVP is using a Bribery deck, quite like what you are using.

I can tell you that I play a DR deck, and none of my 9 loses was against a DR deck. Maybe your problem is something else rather than the balance of the game?

Furthermore, I may be mistaken, but how many ppl are using a DR deck this season in PVP, maybe 5-10? Not really a huge game problem, IMHO....
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Re: PvP balance issues (First player / Dark Ritual / Attila)

Postby ershan81 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:41 am

i use DR in pvp basically just for quick win. cause lately pvp is dead. i suggest you can ban DR use in pvp , its ok. but if you nerf DR, it would effect raids and most people stop playing the game.

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