How to increase deck variety ?

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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 21 Aug 2015, 12:14

I still feel kinda misunderstood :D
Of course usually no 2 decks are the same. There are probably always like 10-15 cards in which they differ.
But many feel as if they were the same imo !
You usually have the usual suspect cards (corageous etc) , Legendaries and varying abilities from equips or commands.
But when such a deck has arty equip it doesnt make it an arty deck for example.
When it has Blitz equip , its not a Blitz deck.
It is something mixed.
And I also have the impression that such decks become more similar the more Legendaries are available.
Like 'Keeping my arty ability or adding my 2 new shiny Legendaries ?'
The cores of these deck simply feel to be too similar for my taste.

I also dont want to criticize players who are doing that , I should emphazize !
Hey , whatever works , works !
And as soon as my deck will become less competitive I will do the exact same thing ;)

I simply miss the 'Themes' or call it 'mono-strategy'-decks.
I mean conversations like 'Hey , I just beat player Xs plane rush deck with my russian propaganda deck' or 'My freeze deck got stomped by player Ys insta-kill deck' are a thing of the past.
Now its more like : 'Wow, player Z has become pretty heavy'.

--------------------

If a limitation of Legendaries is unlikely to become implemented , I more and more like the idea of introducing a deck weight.
For example Legendaries could weigh 7 epics 4 rares 2 and others 1.
Lets say Xs weight is half the weight of Y.
If X has won and would usually get 5 rank points and Y would lose 5 points, Y then could lose (-5*2)10 points and X gains (5x2) 10 points, gets 2x200 platoon points and gains 2x20 gold.
This could motivate players to keep their decks as light as possible without having too much influence in sales (probably?^^).

----------------

Changes to come look promising , cant wait for new cards :D New cards is always good^^
(even though I dont even have most of the last patch yet^^)

Cheers

P.S.: Enjoy your holiday , Nafai ! ;)
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Assassin » 21 Aug 2015, 17:42

Toyyon wrote:I still feel kinda misunderstood :D

Probably...:)

By the way...i was NOT criticizing your playstyle or deck...i understand that you must remove some STRONG cards to use the Brits deck...however...it does seem HARD(-er) to stop...and more resilient to luck...
However i remember a couple games we had in which each won by a landslide (the usual is tighter)...without changing decks...so it may be as you say, just being unluckier against you lately.

Anyhow. What are the ALL HAVE THEM cards you mention...lets see?

Better Equipmentx2
T34x2
(The ones below i dont think everyone has 2 of each)
Bradenburgers
Taking Command (i started using 2 of these when i had to fight your air deck a lot...your fault)
Courageous

Onoda
David
Monty
NOSB (althought i dont see this one that much)
Machine Gun

So...(4+4) Non Legend and 5 (or 6 considering i am forgetting something)...that is about 14 cards almot all top players use...
So it is HALF the deck...i guess we can think of the glass half full or half empty...but i concur it is a thing to keep an eye on...

And out of my head this is it...the rest varies from player to player...i am probably forgetting something...

Notice that several (see below) ARE NOT used by all...at least it is my impression
DamBusters
Flying Tigers
Spitfires
Blitzkrieg
Guunto
Propaganda
Katyuska
Hetzer
A39
Banzai
Maus
Angels
Zaitsev
Marshal Baton
The one that makes units attack themselves
(of course all these ARE COMMON...they are strong cards)

Can you complete this list?

EDIT:
Making the list made me realize that there is in fact a number of cards from which top players choose their mix...it is small if compared with the total number of cards...but large enough for "some" variety...
I think devs wasted some effort on cards nobody uses...it is up to them to create scenarios where we can use them...PVE for now...we can always hope they give us some type of PVP where we can use MORE CARDS! I think we all want this...
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby wolf » 21 Aug 2015, 18:36

Is this a list of most common cards or best cards?
I would definitely add Patton to the list, he is the strongest of the new cards, 4/8 on rank 1 and a unique and extremely useful Ability make him my new favourite. If I draw Patton I usually play him, degrade bergers and destroying them in the same turn is just good and don't get me started on gustav or other oranges.

A very commonly seen card are the 104th(?) Infantry, those pingers that promote themselves at the beginning of the turn. They are pretty similar to oranges as you will want to destroy them immediately.

Scorched earth is pretty common too. Also cards like war room are played often.

That russian spitfire is also pretty good, just forgot the name (lagg-3?)

Jade division is underrated,+1/+1 to all units can lead to a blowout or at least a good trade very, very often.

That medical card should be a one off in almost every deck, you will be suprised how useful this thing can be (Names are not my thing, but i think you know I'm talking about that magic healing tent card :-D)

If you want to beat the top players, you will need to play noborito lab aswell, it trades well against coalition decks and has incredible synergy with dambusters/scorched earth.

I know nobody plays it but I still think enemy at gates is super good, combined with nkvd and alot of pingers this WILL trade in your favour or sometimes even give you additional lines of play to deal lethal damage by removing multiple blockers + lowering the opponents life aswell even as a one off without additional synergy.

Nkvd is cool with flying tigers 1point for a 4/6 flying shock effect can be hard to deal with if played in the right spot.

Last season Ver-2 beat my ass with a stuka deck which was very impressive, I would rate this card as a sleeper atm. Reinforced units must be rated higher since they bring additional protection against the commonly used confusion. That high durability combined with it's bomber ability make it very annoying to play against, expecially if used by a decent player.

Camouflage net is an old card that is perfect for stalled boards and can also lead to unexpected instant kills. It is never wrong to add this card into a deck, no matter what else you play.

Enough wall of text now, I maybe add some more thoughts later if anyone is interested.
Last edited by wolf on 22 Aug 2015, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby 5Cats » 21 Aug 2015, 19:30

Assassin: You forgot 2X Hetzer! One of the strongest cards in the game! It makes T-100 & Tortoise work better, and gets lots of damage done fast! Marines + Hetzer eh?
Mosin is great, and Gunto. I think everyone who has them uses them...

Adding new cards is tricky: Too powerful and it unbalances the game. Not powerful enough and no one will use it!
Similar for new abilities, like Patton's Demotion or Monty. They make that card both interesting and useful, or not!

If any card is useful, most or all players will use it. Not much can be done unless it's terribly OP, then it gets Nerf'd.

Lower cards are still helpful to newer players, and can address missing pieces or strategies in the game. Mostly against the Campaign of course.

Have a fun vacation guys!
Fight Bravely!
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 22 Aug 2015, 09:29

Guys , plz the next times you play PvP please do two things :

1) Try to give your opponents deck a name, without calling it mixed.

An average opponent will probably have some Legends, maybe Gustav amongst them , maybe 2 abilities from equips or commands and varying units.
It might be something long, like hetzerd Gustav+deploy+arty+ap reduction...idk.

2) Imagine this is your deck and what you would do with it if you would aquire more Legendaries.

Most likely you would try to squeeze them into the deck.
And you would have no problems doing that, bc in such decks it is easy to remove card groups without reducing the effeciency of others.
And often the Legendaries you add simply deliver a bigger bang than the cards you removed.
In other words : You remove one part of the name , for example ap reduction.
And the more legendaries you add the less 'words' your deck name has.
------

And this is why I think that the decks aleady have and will be more and more similar over time.
They drift towards orange.

Mono-Strategy, themed , decks prevented this to a certain degree in the past.
But they are not playable anymore (I guess , gonna try some out again I think, just for fun^^).
Maybe they only existed/were played bc people lacked legendaries^^
But in my opinion these were a very entertaining part of the game.

I want to see REALLY DIFFERENT decks.
If deck A blitzes his Maus and deck B has Maus with arty and deck C Maus with shock it doesnt feel different.
You have to play in a different way against them , but you always see the same cards in your opponents decks.
They are simply focused on Legendaries.

And this is probably by design.
I hope they will boost more shoeboxed weak cards in the next patches, so that new strategies might come up again.
The way it is now is simply kinda boring/less entertaining than in the past.

tl/dr : The (little imo) deck variety we have atm is only there bc people have not enough Legendaries imo.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby wolf » 22 Aug 2015, 09:46

Hm that last post makes not much sense. You say on one hand you have to play differently against your 3 sample decks but on the other they feel the same because they all play maus.

I assure you if everyone had the same card pool, deckswills definitely never, ever , look the same.
Instead there would be a level war like I had with alchemic and zloiebun 2 seasons ago, with people continuously trying to break their opponents game plan.

I shouldn't even have to explain that, exploring and tinkering is just human nature, if someone comes up with a new good deck there will be people trying to beat it.
Of course there will also be some who just copy other decks, but really, do you think the majority of players is that narrow minded? I strongly disagree, there is alot of tactics going on outside and inside a game and the better players win more matches, not the decks they play.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 22 Aug 2015, 10:48

Wolf ,
when you encountered a russian propaganda deck and a plane rush deck, then you have a COMPLETE DIFFERENT GAME EXPERIENCE.
At the moment you simply cant have such a thing with the current decks.

Like you say it : The decks are tinkered.
But wouldnt it be cool if people would tinker on really! different decks instead on similar decks ?

wolf wrote:Of course there will also be some who just copy other decks, but really, do you think the majority of players is that narrow minded? I strongly disagree, there is alot of tactics going on outside and inside a game and the better players win more matches, not the decks they play.

Are you trolling ?^^
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby wolf » 22 Aug 2015, 12:24

No I'm not trolling, alchemic won a higher percentage of the game we played against each other than I did because he was better.
I could name other examples but that wouldn't make my statement any more correct, it would probably just piss off some nice guys.

To be perfectly honest:
The game is not that simple, every turn you play must be planned in a way that you make perfect use of your 3 points. Every turn you get even just a small advantage will add up later to your victory. When I read your posts I sense a feeling of frustration/resignation. I will do what I can to help you overcome this issue.

The full legendary deck can also be beaten, it has less removal and promoting without better equipment ist costly. A full propaganda, shock effect, flying tigers deck will have a decent game against it. High def units in the front and promoted artillery give legendaries a hard time.Of course you will have problems with super fast aggro decks.
I also wonder why noone plays panther anymore, once you put this in front of an enemy plane this tank can win single handedly with iron cross/grenade on it. Flag rising really shines with that card too. I've got beaten by panthers on a flooded board because they put them in front of my gunto equipped units then using monty on them so there was no way to kill the panther immediately. You have to be extra careful where to put your units against blitzkrieg decks or you just kill yourself.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 22 Aug 2015, 13:52

wolf wrote:The game is not that simple, every turn you play must be planned in a way that you make perfect use of your 3 points. Every turn you get even just a small advantage will add up later to your victory.

Sorry, but I dont feel that my mind is contested by that. And I doubt that yours or anybodys is.
I mean you can't plan several turns in advance in a deterministic way like in chess.
You have to keep your deck in mind.
You have to keep the opponents deck in mind(as far as you know it).
And you have to act in way that works in favour of your deck strategy and agaist the enemies.
Since there is no graveyard even that is not too hard.

If I would have to tell percentages I would say it is 80% deckbuiling 20% 'live-action-skill' (or however you wanna call it^^)
The hardest part is often simply to stay focused on the game instead of chatting,alt-tabbing etc.
But that's another topic.

wolf wrote:When I read your posts I sense a feeling of frustration/resignation. I will do what I can to help you overcome this issue

YES. I am frustrated.
But not bc I lost against you 3x in a row ;)
I also dont want to build a deck especially against you (thx for the hints thoo) and check if youre on before I enter q to switch decks^^.
I prefer havin a simple standard deck. If I keep losing with it against few certain players its ok for me.
Your all-orange deck is just the extreme that many ppl seem to approximate (as far as they can) from my pov.
Nobody seems to head in a different direction.
Thats why I need a new deck sooner or later, bc my current deck will become less and less performant.
Will keep coalition for a while but will also test other (more or less) themed decks.

Short: I want a new competitive deck that I can give a name/short description other than orange.

wolf wrote:I also wonder why noone plays panther anymore

Why dont you play them ?
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby wolf » 22 Aug 2015, 14:25

Please don't quote me out of context, I gave reasons what makes panther a strong card from my point of view. If you disagree, state your point.
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