How to increase deck variety ?

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How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 20 Aug 2015, 11:47

Hi everyone ,

I open this thread to make the discussion Wolf and Skuzi had here http://www.ww2tcg.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=466&start=60#p3658 more visible, because this is an important topic imo.

-------------- How it is, from my POV(<- yes, I only know that abbrevation bc of porn) --------------

From my point of view the deck variety is constantly decreasing.
Back in the days you could have 'themed' decks like russian+propaganda or insta-kill decks which were more or less playable.
Why were they playable ? Because a)there were less legendaries in the game and b)people didnt have as much legendaries in their card pool as they have today.

Nowadays I only see 3 major deck categories/strategies being used:

1) Orange + AP Reduction + 1 Ability from equips or commands
2) Boost/Rush , like the british coalition deck I use
3) mixed/misc

There are people who are playing very successful with mixed decks, like Assassin (if I remind your deck correctly,plz correct me if not :) ), but these ppl are more the exception than the rule.
Most people use strategy 1) , or are approximating to that strategy with the legends they have.
I also might not have listed my coalition deck strategy because Im the only one using it on a regular base atm afaik.
But since it is still kinda playable I listed it.
But tbh, it is not as good as it often looks. My win ratio is not better than the ratio I had with my old deck(only won last season bc I played more than others). You more often win versus heavy decks, but you also lose more often versus mediocre decks. It is like a distributed big Gustav, its a gamble deck.
And it doesnt seem to work against super-heavy decks, like the one Wolf is playing atm(of course we need more matches to say that, but I dont feel that it stands a chance against your deck on the long run).

Which led my to the question : What do I do now ? Which deck will I use ?

Only answer I had is to hop on the 'Orange-Parade' party train ;)
(if someone has good ideas for other efficient decks plz message me^^)

But honestly. It feels kinda dull.
I mean when someone asks me 'What is your deck strategy or theme' my answer would be 'Orange'.
Orange ornamented with features like ap reduction and few abilities like artillery or blitz.
But the main theme would be orange.

Since more and more people acquire more and more Legends over time and will probably chose the 'orange theme' too , deck building(<- the only part in the game you really have to use your brain) is becoming more and more meaningless.
Which reduces the outcome of battles to the amount of Legendaries each opponent has, since the decks will all be more or less the same.

---------------- What could be done ? ------------------------

Well, most things that come to my mind would imply that a massive tweak of cards would have to be done.

Limiting the amount of Legends (and maybe epics and even rares) in a deck would be an option.
This would imply that many cards would have to be adjusted (e.g. coalition^^).

Also making cards like the Bergepanzer or even the Opel Blitz^^ (and other low rarity shoeboxed cards) playable would be nice.

Another way could be to introduce some kind of deck weight in matchmaking and match rewards. Trying to win with a light deck vs a heavy one would be a legit strategy then.

I dont know , didnt think too much about what could be done(and its consequences) yet.
I hope that you guys see the situation similar to how I see it and have tons of ideas on what should be changed ;)

Basically I miss themed decks. FS , BRING BACK THE THEMES !!! :)

What are your thoughts ?
(Also: sorry for the long post^^)

Cheers
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Assassin » 20 Aug 2015, 16:49

Toyyon wrote:Hi everyone ,
(...)
From my point of view the deck variety is constantly decreasing.

There are people who are playing very successful with mixed decks, like Assassin (if I remind your deck correctly,plz correct me if not :) ), but these ppl are more the exception than the rule.
(...)
Which led my to the question : What do I do now ? Which deck will I use ?

Some comments...

I dont necessarily agree...i dont see the same deck on two players...there are some similarities as we all use 10 or so MUST HAVE cards, plus a couple others very frequent ones...but styles are very different.
I havent played wolf lately...but i have very different experiences against Toyyon, Skuzi or other top players...

I do have a varied deck...i make an effort to do so...i use mostly ONE OF EACH card so that i am "forced" to play differently...(to be honest...sometimes i dont know which is better, so i take one of each). I can say i have some success...BUT LUCK is a big factor...i dont have a specific tactic...i go in hoping to do more damage faster than i take it...:)...and i have enough "oranges" to make it work several times.

That said...there are some "issues":
- The Orange Parade is a real problem...i am part of it...and i cannot use all of them...i advocated limiting the number of legendaries back when i had few. I still think it is a good idea. The problem i guess is that this would reduce the motivation for players to BUY THEM! :)

- I still think some cards are TOO STRONG...making them a MUST HAVE for all players...and causing issues for those who dont have them (i had lots of success when i was one of the few with Monty).

BUT...i also think this is a very varied TCG...no two games are the same...the cards you get MAKE YOU use a different tactics. In fact, the only player that seems to me is using a "fixed tactic" is Toyyon...at least until others start getting his famous brit card....
I am NOT criticizing...it is the rules of the game...and I WOULD USE THE CARD...just saying that it seems to be a bit OP. It was also the case in the past...Noborito and Flag Raising were also too strong once upon a time...now are more adjusted...

Suggestions:
- EVENTS! Weeks, seasons or some special events where players ARE FORCED to use different decks...in line with the "amateur" suggestions on another topic. BUT OFFICIAL (i usually dont play unoffcial because i mostly find opponents which are not using the recommended decks). They should be LONG ENOUGH and INTERESTING/MANDATORY. Then players would have to create decks...and have time to use them.
- LEGENDARY (and eventually EPIC) limits
- Some tweaking of some cards...devs should check which...but i think some are "overused"...and therefore are probably too strong...
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby 5Cats » 20 Aug 2015, 17:10

I've seen two other kinds of decks, both related to what you've described Toyyon:

3.1 Planes & Parachutes: Have lots of fast deploying units, and ones that shoot over things in general. Try to damage the Leader a little every turn until he's dead. Don't worry too much about killing enemy units or keeping yours alive.
Pro: Easy to make with low cards! Opponents rarely have many planes, and never any AA, to block.
Con: Not very effective, Taking Command pretty much nullifies it.

3.2 Stabby-Stabbing: Have units which deal damage directly to the leader upon entry, like 1st Element or 101st, but a couple of "fixed" cards do it now also. These are typically 1 to promote, so they'll do more damage after they die & return!
Pro: Again, cheap cards, simple to play.
Con: Again, Taking Command foils the plan. And the enemy can keep his cards alive to wipe you out.

Aside from the "roll the dice" with Gustav or T-100 (plus a lot of luck or help!) winning against a better Orange deck isn't easy, but it can be done. Except against Wolf and now Rickstar89, those guys get perfect draws every hand! :( When did Rick get so good? I used to smack him around, and now my deck is better! His is much more better though, loaded in fact.

Both Gustav and T-100 need their attack numbers reduced a bit: Gustav to 20 or less, T-100 to 8-12-16? Tops.

How to improve the Blitz Truck and the panzer/infantry buffing units: Make them do a buff upon entry? That would make them useful!
IDK about Cargo Crates doing that though, probably OP to drop it on an r-3 for instant +6 life... (since several units have 1-1 promotions now) and make it harder to kill. Steel Guards for example...
So they'd buff other units in play, but not themselves. Next turn? Buff again, including themselves! Some units already buff on entry (including themselves), and are useful, but don't buff every turn, which is fine.
Same for Rockets and Pak-43 (newer cards) which damage enemy infantry and armour, but only the next turn. Might make them OP, but they'd be much more useful all of a sudden!

To have "special deck tournaments" we would NEED a 3rd deck box! It's bad enough with only 2! That might cut into sales, but I've only come across 1 player who said he bought a 3rd box...
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby alemán » 20 Aug 2015, 19:21

I have 4 deck slots, the additional slot is worth the 10 kreds i would say.
Buy it !!!!!!!!! :)

I play lots of decks and most of them are fun i must say, i call it "pvp scenarios" ... simply because i like some cards or deck ideas. Of course this only makes sense if one is not into pvp ranking or platoon points ... and that is exactly the point. Would have been great seeing more top ranked players participating in the community events. Instead of going for the challenge of theme decks and balanced pvp, many simply ignored the events and went for pvp ranking power play (Shame!^^). So much for the pathos.

...

In general I agree with most points u guys mentioned and talking about deck variation of top 20-30 players - most decks consist up to 50% of the same cards like Monty, Hiiro, Sakai, Browning, Mosin, Better Equipment, Command, Spying/Courageous, Hetzers, some planes + damage units like brandenburgers or another focus etc ...

Suggestions

1. Developers patch some balancing/events/...
2. Community agrees on terms if devs do not fix that issue
3. Hm^^

Whichever way it's gonna be, it is great we are debating on it and looking for ways of improving this game and its gaming experience.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Toyyon » 20 Aug 2015, 20:06

@Assassin :
Well , maybe I formulated it a bit unclear.
Im not complaining about certain players having found a strategy for their deck and keep on using only that strategy.
What is annoying imo is that most players chose or seem to choose (or are kinda forced to chose) all the same/similar strategy.
I chose british boost and try to stick with it as long as possible^^ This deck and my (very) old insta-kill deck are the decks I had/have the most fun with.

regarding coalition being OP : I understand that ppl have that impression. All I can say : Please try it out. You will have awesome victories and terrible defeats. But the win ratio will not improve(at least not a top player ratio like yours ;) ). I know that skuzi has all cards for a coalition deck and I guess 5Cats too. Carl and some others have at least all key cards I guess. So please try it. Only thing I can promise you is that you will have fun with that deck ;)

Maybe it is my 'coalition-blindness' that makes me feel that all decks are the same, bc I can play my deck always in the same way independent of my opponents deck to a certain degree...but tbh I dont think so (but true, the 'must-have' cards pay their toll here too probably).

@Cats: Are you proposing to me to try these decks out or are you saying that these decks are actually used ?
If latter : Who uses them ? Havent seen such decks for ages. My old deck was a plane focused deploy rush deck. Havent seen such a thing for a very long time.

Also I didnt mean newbies trying decks out, but the 'usual suspects' who are frequently in pvp and whose decks look all similar to me.
AND : Skuzi doesnt count ! :D He plays like 5 different decks a day and is infested with crazy Skuziness ;)
(Still hear him yelling at me in chat 'TASTE YOUR OWN MEDICINE' when we had a coalition vs coalition duell^^)


Another idea I have is that certain Legends exclude each other : For example : You cant combine Monty with Onoda in a deck , or something like that.

P.S.: 3 deck slots here. It is a pretty fair f2p game that is far far away from being p2w (even if all cards were available in shop imo), so at some point the FS guys have to pay their bills. And 10 Kreds is like me eating 1/3rd döner kebap less at one day^^

-----
Edit: Mandatory events would be awesome. If not possible we have to bully players not participating or leeching even harder :twisted:
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby 5Cats » 21 Aug 2015, 04:10

has all cards for a coalition deck and I guess 5Cats too.


I do! I have LOTS of cards! Lolz! Didn't I play against you with it? I got my 2nd Coco (Coalition) card the next day, actually, and added it immediately! I think I swapped a card or two to make it even more British...

I used it for 5 matches one evening, 3 against modest opponents (only 1 was top-40), 1 against Ver-2 (good player! who surrendered, but was slightly ahead at the time, so IDK why? I guess he had to go) and against Rickstar89, who overwhelmed me with Orange... reasonably close though!

That was the 5,5,4,5 for wins and -13 for losing against freaking Rickstar! Crimmeny!! I complained about it elsewhere...

Those decks? I've seen the Planes & Chutes a few times, but only Skuzi had the Stabby-Stabby deck :) It was pretty effective!

A week-long "Second PvP" area where you can play 3-5 times for an aggregate score of some sort? Adding the wins of the opponents you defeat to your total or something? With either a fixed or restricted deck, like the Bun Fights? There's so many ways to have PvP fun BUT it always needs lots of participants... with various sources not being able to communicate with each other (outside of FS_Forums here) it makes that difficult.

I keep hoping though!
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Pieterr » 21 Aug 2015, 08:55

At this moment I’m 2 cards away from being complete: A great Gustav and a Truppenverbandplatz is all I need to complete the collection. Having almost all the cards is great when deck building. But I almost feel ashamed to show up with an nearly orange/blue deck and taking on a new guy trying a PVP battle. At least that’s no fun to me.

To developers I’d say: I can understand the tough situation you’re in:
On one side there’s a small group of die-hard fans/players who have a good understanding of the game and providing excellent feedback. On the other side there’s a majority of new people trying and learning the game which you probably wish to keep on board. It shall definitely not be easy to keep both sides satisfied.
I can see that this game is still growing with new features and of course new cards. Correct me if I’m wrong but if I’ve been reading this forum correctly we can expect the following implementations in the nearby future:
- a German dungeon;
- daily missions;
- organizing events.

I feel that the initiative some players started (the tribe-table) is really something that developers should pick up to do something with. At this moment a player can only buy packs and missions for the gold he has. To my opinion the possibilities a player has in how he’s spending his gold is too limited. I’d love to pay some gold to enter an organized event and enter a PVP competition and play against other players with somehow limited/restricted decks.

Bullying other players and/or forcing them into specific sections of the game doesn’t seem a good idea to me.

I hope this is any use to you,

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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby nAFAI » 21 Aug 2015, 10:17

Hey guys,

Just wanted to say thanks to you all for this concise and really good feedback you all provided, although we are very aware of the situation of the game as Pieter mentioned is not an ideal spot for us, nevertheless we will try to always provide different and new features to give the game some variety, so I want to share here our thoughts on the main topics:

- Restrict Number of legends: Although I completly see the point in doing this, it's a bit more complex than it seems for once I think it will cut depth into the game, some legendaries have unique abilities and limiting their use will result in decks having more or less the same abilities, our approach to this matter was to make a different PvP system with One ladder full competitivite and another friendly ladder with limitations but if we have problems filling one ladder alone, dividing the pvp players into two is a dead end. Also of course is the issue that the monetization will decrease a lot, players will go only after the X best legendaries and epics and will be just fine with them only.

- More card balance: Yes, we will be doing a new balance update in the next couple of months. I think our approach in the last patch was correct, we want to boost common, uncommon and rare cards so that they can be more competitive in pvp and less of collectible cards.

- Same deck strategies:I don't fully agree here I can understand that with the last update some decks are now FOTM but we have not reached the point where one specific decks wins all of the others which is what we have to look after, we have a close eye on this and on each update we try to look for alternatives to weak the current FOTM decks and empower the other alternatives, I myself like to use stall decks with supplys, tanks, bergers & grenades, it's quite a different approach and although it's not a killemall deck is definetly a viable alternative.

- Must Use Cards: Agree that this is not design ideal, there shouldn't be any must card, but in almost any CCG is hard to avoid those, nevertheless we are looking for ways to address this issue, we are looking specially into: Better Equipment, Brandenburgers and taking comand. In the end if we do not come with an elegant approach for this matter what we will end up doing will be granting them as Campaign rewards so every player can use them.

- Increase PvP players/rewards: I think we can also make an effort here. With the addition of Daily Missions we will incentivate players to play more PvP, as one of the daily missions will be to win 2 PvP matches. On the other hand we are still tweaking the number of platoon points, but it's most probably that we will "slightly" increase the amount of platoon points given for pvp wins.

- PvP Events: This is something that will make a lot of sense, and personally I really enjoy seeing you guys come up with some really nice events and deck rules, this would be ideal to have in the game, however implement a deck check only available for certain hours in the regular PvP queue is by no means an easy task, it will require a lot of efforts and basically re-do how the PvP matcmaking system works, It's in our roadmap but we cannot jump on that for the moment, however a different and more accessible solution that we want to do is remake our play with friends feature so its completly crossplatform (currently only available for mobile users) and more easy to use, with this we can make some custom tournaments from our end and also from you guys, I know it's not ideal but good things can come up from that too.

As for what it's already coming:

- Daily Missions: As mentioned, it will have two different features and it's own shop (with special daily missions currency), it will also have some kind of Achievement Missions (play 100 PvP matches, play 100 Historicals etc..) and three daily missions that will reset each day.

- New Historical Mission: Battle of Gazala, German mission with Special rewards (Afrika Korps & Hermann Ramcke for example).

- 14 New Cards: Including new cards avaiable per daily missions or Gazala.

- Balance & Card Revamp: Not sure if we will be able to be in time to release the balance revamp for this next update as it usually take some time to retest and check all the cards changed, but if it's not for the next update it will be for the following one.

On a personal note I also want to share with you guys that this has been the first summer in three years (since we started the Studio) that we have been taking holidays, so it's a huge step for us we do not have to check the calendars with pressure and we can finally enjoy some time with our families, so untill the end of september our development speed will be a little lower than usual (I myself will start my holidays next friday but I will try to check at least the forums from time to time), with this I want to thank for your support again, some of you have been here from day 1 and have seen us struggle and grow, we are by no means on the rise but at least we are finally sustainable which is huge in the current Indie studios times.

We will also announce our newest CCGs in the next couple of weeks, it looks promising too and I think many of you would find it interesting, as it goes away again from the Monsters theme to a more serious one.

Cheers and much love to you all, hope this summers is going great for you and can't wait to have mine too hehehe ^^.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Pieterr » 21 Aug 2015, 10:39

- PvP Events: ...., however implement a deck check only available for certain hours in the regular PvP queue is by no means an easy task, it will require a lot of efforts and basically re-do how the PvP matcmaking system works, It's in our roadmap but we cannot jump on that for the moment, however a different and more accessible solution that we want to do is remake our play with friends feature so its completly crossplatform (currently only available for mobile users) and more easy to use, with this we can make some custom tournaments from our end and also from you guys, I know it's not ideal but good things can come up from that too.

nAFAI,
In one of my previous posts I've suggested in option in the game where players can meet and fight a non-rewarding PVP match. I believe it is already possible to fight such a match against a facebook friend. By adding this option (for now?) I think you've already solved your main problems. Because than people could subscribe to a certain competition. This forum could work as an excellent option to keep track of scores and gameplay.
Players who wish to particpate on such an event wouldn't have to worry about losing their position in the ranking system.

Seems to me: problem solved!

Edit: I apologize not having read your topic about this quite good. Seems to me that we are already sharing the same thoughts about how this could be solved.
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Re: How to increase deck variety ?

Postby Assassin » 21 Aug 2015, 12:05

nAFAI wrote:- Restrict Number of legends:(...) Also of course is the issue that the monetization will decrease a lot, players will go only after the X best legendaries and epics and will be just fine with them only.

Yep...this would be an issue. It would only be solved WHEN you can have TWO leaderboards...and apply restrictions only on the PRO one...i guess. I can see why this is not possible now...not enough players, and not an easy and profitable task.
[b]- More card balance: Yes, we will be doing a new balance update in the next couple of months. I think our approach in the last patch was correct, we want to boost common, uncommon and rare cards so that they can be more competitive in pvp and less of collectible cards.

I think this is where your game actually works well...so dont break it...it is not perfect (i have cried OP a couple times)...but is very good. Take your time...
- Same deck strategies:I don't fully agree here I can understand that with the last update some decks are now FOTM but we have not reached the point where one specific decks wins all of the others which is what we have to look after, we have a close eye on this and on each update we try to look for alternatives to weak the current FOTM decks and empower the other alternatives, I myself like to use stall decks with supplys, tanks, bergers & grenades, it's quite a different approach and although it's not a killemall deck is definetly a viable alternative.

I only feel "underdog" aganst Toyyon right now (reminder...i haveny played against Wolf) ...BUT i believe that the Coalition card has flaws...dont have it yet, so i will take his word for it...other than that i dont think SAME LEVEL GUYS have a SURE WIN deck...
- Must Use Cards: Agree that this is not design ideal, there shouldn't be any must card, but in almost any CCG is hard to avoid those, nevertheless we are looking for ways to address this issue, we are looking specially into: Better Equipment, Brandenburgers and taking comand. In the end if we do not come with an elegant approach for this matter what we will end up doing will be granting them as Campaign rewards so every player can use them.

I think the ONLY one which is VERY DECISIVE is actuallt Better Equipment...in a top level match, the player that gets it MORE in the first turns (we al have TWO in deck...nobody will be mad to use less than 2) is usually the winner...
Dont know if you ever considered making it faction specific (as wolf suggested somewhere)...BUT this would be a major change, so take care...
- Increase PvP players/rewards: I think we can also make an effort here. With the addition of Daily Missions we will incentivate players to play more PvP, as one of the daily missions will be to win 2 PvP matches. On the other hand we are still tweaking the number of platoon points, but it's most probably that we will "slightly" increase the amount of platoon points given for pvp wins.

I think this is necessary...still dont understand why you are so wary of doing this...
(...)
As for what it's already coming:
(...)
On a personal note I also want to share with you guys that this has been the first summer in three years (since we started the Studio) that we have been taking holidays(...)

Thanks in Advance...i am probably your worst customer...but i think you DESERVE success (i.e. profit)...and holidays. Take your time, have fun and relax...we will be there when you came back...
We will also announce our newest CCGs in the next couple of weeks, it looks promising too and I think many of you would find it interesting, as it goes away again from the Monsters theme to a more serious one.

If you can...a hint of the theme would be nice...

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