PvP

Discuss anything related to Heroes Empire: TCG
framer
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:43 pm

PvP

Postby framer » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:50 pm

I wanted to make a thread about both the current pre season and upcoming pvp season after I talked to Isidro today. In investigating the top PvP players it turned out the Silence members participated in "win trading" and I was asked to stop this. As we never made a secret of us not playing alliance matches (both mentioned on this and on the Kong forum) I don't mind making this public knowledge. We had the rule that whoever goes second in a match between members surrenders, as to not waste time on a match that gives no alliance points.

I agree this is quite lame; it brings our pvp scores closer together and doesn't fit the spirit of PvP. I want to make very clear this was not done for making our players higher ranked: top players actually lose a lot of rating because of it (someone like hisi would dominate most of our members as well). But the way the queue works higher rated people will always keep getting matched to each other, in our case our own team members, over and over and over. This afternoon I queued for over 2 hours and got 1 match that wasn't in Silence.

An easy fix would be to filter out fellow members (as suggested multiple times by myself and other Silence members in this topic http://www.kongregate.com/forums/16074- ... uggestions) or also give alliance points from these matches (very prone to abuse though). As it is in the current system forcing us to play these matches for no rewards will prevent us from scoring alliance points in pvp, potentially losing us 4 weekly reward scrolls for over half our members in one pvp season, just so 1 person has the chance to qualify for a scroll at the end of the season.

We don't care about the PvP rankings, feel free to take me out of them, but please just let us play the game.
Hisi
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:41 am

Re: PvP

Postby Hisi » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:55 pm

Would you please reset my pvp rating so I am able to score again without having to derank on purpose? At my current pvp rating I am matched 95%+ of the time vs ally mates. So I got 1 match vs non ally mates in about 3 hours this evening so far...
User avatar
DUKUNDE
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:21 am

Re: PvP

Postby DUKUNDE » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:10 pm

I am really curious what is the reason to say that we have to stop surrendering now.
I mean its an open secret that we're doing it. We mentioned it in forum and chat and even back in the days when I played ww2 tcg ppl were doing it there.

Is it only bc of the new automated seasons ?
Or is it bc you want to 'reorganize' the alliances ?
Because the latter is what it effectively means to us.

In TheSilence are most of the most competitive pvp players assembled.
Some of us came in by merging with other alliances, some hopped into our alliance and some were recruited.
Over the time we merged to a tight union of players, helping each other, training each other, giving each other tips for deckbuilding and crafting.
We fought off other alliances in pvp and outscored alt farmers.
All for one goal : To get the weekly #1 reward as a team.

We do not get many matches with ppl that are not in our alliance if we play regularly.
So what we did is surrendering to each other, like ted mentioned.
If you force us to stop that it basically means that we stop scoring efficiently and lose the weekly #1 reward.
We can not compete with players that score ~40k per week and magically hold their rank down to 1000 (im sure these guys are legit and that you have 'checked' not just us, but all players).

So we probably wont have 4 times the Grand Mystic Scroll for all members in a month but only 1 time 1 Grand Mystic Scroll for one of us(in case we have the #1 pvp guy).

So basically it means for us to abandon the alliance.

I hope this is not the different approach you mentioned here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19#p72 , because you said that you 'would like to avoid competition inside your own Alliances, in the end it should be a social friendly tool to battle against other Alliances, not against your own team mates'. Because for us it pretty much means exactly that.

So if all the fuzz is just bc of the automated seasons...plz just exclude us from season rewards and allow us to play the game as the alliance we became in a monthlong struggle.

Or even easier : Give us a little checkbox we can click on that allows us to avoid teammates

Cheers
AlabamaMan
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:44 am
Location: Chicago

Re: PvP

Postby AlabamaMan » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:27 am

both sides have a point. I think the pvp trading that they don't like is more because of "free gold". But I wasn't in the conversation.
Jernau
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:50 pm

Re: PvP

Postby Jernau » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:42 am

I find it hard to see how the top players in ranking can be accused of "win trading" when the ranking system is set up so that more points are lost for a loss than gained for a win. Any player deliberately exploiting the system by trading victories with another account goes DOWN in ranking. Players at the top still want to play PvP and earn alliance points.
ershan81
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:56 pm

Re: PvP

Postby ershan81 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:50 am

i agree with Toy, just exclude us from super duper season rewards and let us suffer not having them loll
nAFAI
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:14 am

Re: PvP

Postby nAFAI » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:47 am

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for your feedback and words, honestly I understand perfectly your point and the reasons behind them, it's not an easy situation as both sides have their reasons and are completly right, that's why we are not taking actions for the moment, as we a also consider this pre-season more like a testing season than anything.

The problem will always be the player's pool and the matchmaking. As I mentioned PvP ladder and Alliances should be different things and we would love to have different queues but segmentating the player base is the worst decision we could do, that's why our approach will be to: Fix PvP bugs, improve the matchmaking system so it doesn't take that longer even if you are a high elo player and increase the playerbase via marketing.

That's why once we release our next big update we will be able to invest and attact more players to the game, with our tweaks in the matchmaking we hopw that the chances of facing alliance members will be much lower, note that we understand that you want to surrender to other alliance members if you get matched, that's fine, the thing that is not fine (not only your fault as it's also ours) is when that happens 20 times in a row, the amount of gold earning per minute and ladder unfairness is what could be a bit shady.

We are still considering the option to skip alliance members from the pvp queue, at least the idea of the checkbox sounds interesting, but will have to check with programming before, as it doesn't seems as easy as it initially looks.

Nevertheless we are pretty confident that we will be able to have a much more healthier ladder for the 1st PvP Season to come and we look forward to see what it has to offer.

Cheers!
framer
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:43 pm

Re: PvP

Postby framer » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:18 pm

Thanks for the reply nAFAI.

nAFAI wrote:As I mentioned PvP ladder and Alliances should be different things and we would love to have different queues but segmentating the player base is the worst decision we could do, that's why our approach will be to: Fix PvP bugs, improve the matchmaking system so it doesn't take that longer even if you are a high elo player and increase the playerbase via marketing.


Filtering alliance members is hardly segmenting the player base, since those matches are meaningless atm. Giving an option to play matches vs your friends would be a nice alternative, but having to play a majority of your matches for no rewards is worse than losing 14 sparring partners.

nAFAI wrote:That's why once we release our next big update we will be able to invest and attact more players to the game, with our tweaks in the matchmaking we hopw that the chances of facing alliance members will be much lower,


Unless the tweaks in the matchmaking prevent getting matched with fellow members the problem will persist at the top of the ladder. Having a larger player base will alleviate the problem in that we would have to spend less time waiting for the other member to get matched, but we would still have to coordinate when someone is in queue and when they are matched.

nAFAI wrote:note that we understand that you want to surrender to other alliance members if you get matched, that's fine,
the thing that is not fine (not only your fault as it's also ours) is when that happens 20 times in a row, the amount of gold earning per minute and ladder unfairness is what could be a bit shady.


Absolutely fair enough, I can't in good consciousness defend basically treating it as a goldfarm. Being able to get gold is one of the biggest gameplay issues the game has atm (noone can afford to craft powers so raid points stack up making them meaningless, people are buying greek fires just to sell them for gold with quest points, grinding easy adventures is the most profitable etc) but all players should be equal in that regard.

If that is the message then I fully agree, not having to play vs fellow members, just not in an abusive way. From my conversation with Isidro I got the impression we were suspected of wintrading our way to the top of the pvp ranking (which is absolutely not the case) and surrendering wasn't allowed at all. If you can confirm your stance on it I will make sure we follow it.

nAFAI wrote:Nevertheless we are pretty confident that we will be able to have a much more healthier ladder for the 1st PvP Season to come and we look forward to see what it has to offer.


I hope the same thing, we don't care much for PvP rankings but we do care a lot about being able to PvP. Can we agree to do a player evaluation after the first season to see what could be improved?
Hisi
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:41 am

Re: PvP

Postby Hisi » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:35 pm

nAFAI wrote:We are still considering the option to skip alliance members from the pvp queue, at least the idea of the checkbox sounds interesting, but will have to check with programming before, as it doesn't seems as easy as it initially looks.


Are you kidding me? Where is the problem to let the match making algorithm check one more attribute you obviously can access without problems for calculating the gain of ally points after a match???
User avatar
DUKUNDE
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:21 am

Re: PvP

Postby DUKUNDE » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:02 pm

Could you please :

A) Formulate a precise set of rules
B) Make these rules public to the whole community
C) Enforce those rules to all players equally on a weekly base

A)
As far as we understood we are not allowed to ever use the surrender button when fighting ally mates.
Is it allowed to surrender to ppl that are not in our ally ? Can I surr to ppl that are not Silence and not in an ally competing with us to drop in rank ?
Please clarify this and give us a detailed set of rules.

B)
Since these rules are not there for Silence members only you should make them public.
Maybe an ingame announcement or at least an extended tooltip-text on an info label in the pvp screen.

C)
Afaik you checked for exploits and cheats only at end of season or when ppl got reported so far.
Well, the best rewards are the rewards for the weekly alliance rank and the fight for the weekly reward is still some kind of wildwest. We had obvious cheaters in the past and it took 3 weeks to take them down(or for them to get bored, no idea...) In that time Silence lost 1 #1 reward and several other alliances that were originally #2 and #3 lost their rewards for several weeks. That is not really responsive from your side.
Atm there are several players in other alliances that are definetly holding down their rank and score with ease.

If you declare rules you should enforce these rules for all players equally and in time (<- BEFORE rewards are computed)
So please check at least all players of the top 5 alliances every wednesday morning and reset the score of delinquents before the rewards are computed.
Telling ppl 4 weeks later that someone exploited something and stole the rewards and that it was kinda bad luck for us is not really satisfying...

Cheers

Return to “Heroes Empire: TCG Official Forums”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests